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![Robert HYDE, [Parents?]](img/male.jpg)
Robert HYDE, [Parents?]
Abt 1778 - 1845 (~ 67 years)
Has 45 ancestors and 319 descendants in this family tree.
Set As Default Person 
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Name Robert HYDE Suffix [ONS gp] [Parents?] Relationship 
with Teresa Ann GOATHAM Born Abt 1778 (possibly), Middlesex, England 
- Although I have not found a birth or baptism record for Robert, it seems * probable * that Robert was the son of John and Ruth.
See my exploration of the evidence below. (Any thoughts on this or any additional evidence - for or against - welcome)
Shown as aged 60 in the 1841 census (suggesting born 1775-81); shown as aged 67 at death in both burial register and on death cert, suggesting about 1778. If I am right and he was a son of John and Ruth, then he had a brother born baptised in Jan. 1778, so probably born between their 1773 marriage and 1776 - most likely towards the end of that time, given the age shown at death.
I had thought Robert was most likely born in Kent, but his 1841 census entry shows him as being born in Middlesex. (Not the most reliable evidence - he was living in Middlesex, and a lot of people seems to have been wrongly shown with a 'Y' for born in county when they weren't).
Robert's parents
Hyde was a surname rare in Margate before Robert married there - apart from the marriage there of John HYDE and Ruth PHILPOTT in 1773.
Although that would make them seem possible parents, as well as no baptism they did not remain in Kent but moved to London.
The marriage licence information shows that Ruth was the son of Roger, but in his will, written in 1785, Roger names her as Ruth GRIMWOOD, not HYDE. Ruth had remarried in London in 1783, and before this with John HYDE she had had a son baptised in London in 1778 - but John Walker, not Robert. As they had been married for 5 years Robert could have been born before this, or possibly after. There is a burial of a John HYDE who could be Ruth's first husband in 1778 but I can't be sure it is the right John HYDE.
Possibly Robert was the son of John and Ruth and moved to Kent to live with relations at some point.
Evidence re John and Ruth - for / against / neither
Date of birth - 1778, the year most likely from data for Robert, seems unlikely given the baptism of another child that year. However, ages were often a little out, so I don't think is evidence against. In fact I think it is evidence that it could be Robert: it suggests he was born after John and Ruth married (and before John died). It would be unusual to have a first child five years after a marriage, so the fact the only clear evidence for a child of John and Ruth is 5 years after suggests that there probably were one or more others whose baptisms have not been found. [Summary: slightly for]
Lack of a baptism
Ruth's parents had 13 children. Baptisms of the first 10 were at St. John's Church in Margate, but no baptisms have been found for the youngest 3, although the family were still living in Margate, and all 3 are named as his children by their father in his will. The most likely explanation would seem to be that the family had started attending another church. If they had become non-conformist, and that was how Ruth was brought up, it is quite possible that Robert too was baptised in a non-conformist church. (Although registers of non-conformist churches were gathered in in 1837, and images / indexes are online, there seem to be many omissions, presumably because the registers did not all survive).
In summary, baptism records survive for most people born around the time Robert was. There seems to be no baptism record for Ruth or 2 of her siblings, which I believe increases the likelihood of the family being non-conformist, with baptisms in a register that does not survive, and hence of a baptism record for Robert also not surviving. [Summary: slightly for]
Family names - Robert had a large family, so we might have expected some family names amongst his children. However, John was not used until his third son, and then with the middle name 'Holbrook', and there was no daughter Ruth, nor were the names of his Philpott grandparents used. If Robert was the son of John and Ruth he would have had two step-fathers called Samuel but there was no son Samuel. Of course Robert may not have been close to his family and hence not wished to use their names. Most often though family names were used. [Summary: slightly against]
Occupation - Although in ports, like Margate, it was not unusual for local women to marry men from some distance away this was usually because the men had arrived there as mariners. Robert was a rope maker, I have seen no evidence of him being a mariner. It would seem a bit of a coincidence that a Hyde with no obvious reason for being in Margate but of just the right age to be John and Ruth's son would be there if there were no link. [Summary: for - linked to next argument; it would not have been such a coincidence if Hyde was a common name in the area.] However, could Robert have been a mariner and then settled down to a land-based occupation? - I don't really known how likely / unlikely this would have been.
Surname in East Kent - Although not a rare surname generally the name Hide / Hyde was quite uncommon in East Kent, so again it seems a bit of a coincidence he should have settled in Margate if there wasn't a link to John and Ruth. John was from North Weald Bassett, and it is in that area that most Essex Hydes are found, not near the coast so not likely others would become mariners and make the same journey as John. [Summary: for]
Loss of his father - Ruth is likely to have found it hard to cope with a couple of young children when John died; unless she remarried very quickly she will have needed to work and for someone to look after her children. It could well be that that is when Robert moved to Margate. Stepfathers - another possibility is that he didn't get on with one (or both) of his step-fathers, leading him to move to Margate. It does seem to me more likely that a boy who had lost his father and gained a stepfather would be living with other relations than if his father had lived. Once we reach the time of censuses it is common to find children who have lost either parent living with grandparents or aunts and uncles, including after the remaining parent had remarried. [Summary: for]
Social standing - limited information, but Robert being a rope-maker and one of his stepfathers a cooper suggests the same sort of social standing. I did think the fact Ruth's father left a will suggested a higher social standing than would have been expected for my Hyde family, but seeing the will and accompanying letter it is clear that not only was he simply a cordwainer but he died poor, he is recorded as a pauper in the burial register, and his will was not execute as his debts exceeded his assets. Hence it seems quite possible Ruth could have been Robert's mother. [Summary: given that most people were working class this is more the lack of evidence against rather than evidence for]
In London - it may well not be coincidence that when Robert and his family moved to London they probably lived first at Poplar (since that was where his wife was buried) and then Robert lived at Ratcliff, i.e. very close to where Ruth and her families lived. In fact, Ruth and Robert were even buried in the same churchyard. It is also worth noting that Robert's first daughter, although baptised in Margate, appears to have been born in Limehouse, again very close to where members of the family later lived and close to where Ruth was then living. Although this may be considered good evidence for, these were amongst the places mariners and those with related occupations (including coopers and rope-markers) were likely to live. However, plenty of these places were a little more distant, so a bit of coincidence they should be so close if not related. [Summary: for]
Wills - I had hoped Roger Philpott's will might mention a grandson Robert. It doesn't, but neither does it mention John Walker HYDE (for whom I think the evidence is clear that he was Roger's grandson), nor did Roger mention grandchildren by other children of his.
The will of Samuel Briscoe also does not mention any step-child (although his step-son John Walker was clearly still living). [Summary: no positive evidence, but the lack of a mention of Robert in both these wills is clearly not evidence against.]
DNA - John Hyde was said to have been 'of' North Weald, Essex' when he married. This does not necessarily mean he was born in that parish or even that area, but the likelihood that he was has to be high. There were H(y/i)de families in North Weald Bassett and the neighbouring parish of Theydon Garnon in the C18th, though from the index on Ancestry (2019) no John stands out as likey to be Robert's probable father. I do have a DNA match with a descendant of one Louisa HYDE, baptised in Stapleford Abbots, the daughter of Thomas and Eleanor. I have not been able to establish a link between Louisa's family and John, not because they don't seem to link but because I haven't found a baptism for Thomas or for John, or a marriage for Thomas. Perhaps they too were non-confirmist (though this would not explain the absence of a marriage record). At the closest we would be linked about 8 generations back, and the descendant and I would be something like 7th cousins. atDNA is generally not safe to establish a link this far back, as there can often be more than one link. This is especially the case where one has a significant number of ancestors from one area. Although I have little Essex ancestry, and don't know of any other in this part, this link could easily be from a different part of our trees. The descendant has ancestors from New Buckenham in Norfolk, I have ancestors from nearby Old Buckenham - maybe we have some common ancestry in that area. In addition we both have Gumbrill ancestors from Billingshurst in Sussex, though a link through that family would have to be at least a generation earlier. With just one match, and no triangulation, it is impossible at present to know if this match is from common HYDE ancestors.
Overall, I do now think the evidence strongly favours Robert being the son of John and Ruth, but I would still like to find more conclusive evidence.
(Since Ruth was from a large family I will look at her siblings and their families and see if there is any will of an uncle or aunt etc. that might mention Robert).
Gender Male Occupation 1813 Walmer, Kent, England Rope maker - At the time of his son George's baptism.
Walmer was his abode; I assume he was working in or near there.
Residence 1841 Queen Street, Limehouse, Middlesex, England Occupation From 1841 to 1845 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Rope maker - Again I am assuming that Robert was working near where he was living.
The 1841 census form shows that Robert was living in Queen Street, and originally the header showed the parish as Ratcliff, which was corrected to "St. Ann". His death certificate shows he died at no. 5 London Street. London Street was very close to Queen Street, running north from it a little to the West of Limehouse Basin (aka Regen't Canal Dock). Dying of typhus fever Robert may well have died at home, and been working until shortly before his death when he caught typhus.
An 1875 map shows Queen Street running East-West just to the west of the Regent's Canal Dock, with "Risbic's Ropewalk" and "Ropemakers Fields" no more than half a mile away on the Eastern side of the dock - I suspect it was in this area that Robert was working.
Ratcliff was a hamlet split between the parishes of Stepney and Limehouse (St. Anne's), and not a parish in its own right, although a church was built there in 1838 which may have caused the confusion.
In 1841 Robert was living in the house of lighterman George Wall, George's wife Elizabeth and their family - I don't know if these were relations or if Robert was simply a lodger or boarder.
Died 28 Oct 1845 No. 5, London Street, Ratcliff, Stepney, Middlesex, England Cause: Typhus fever (certified) - GRO ref: Hyde, Robert q4 1845 Stepney RD 2 378
The death was registered by a Martha Donohoo, present at the death, who I believe was Robert's daughter (see research notes below).
Death certificate for Robert Hyde (b c 1778) Buried 2 Nov 1845 St. Dunstan and All Saints’ Church, Stepney, Middlesex, England - Burial register gives his age as 67, abode Ratcliff
Siblings1 brother Half-siblings1 half sister (family of Samuel GRIMWOOD and Ruth PHILPOTT) Half-siblings1 half brother and 1 half sister (family of Samuel BRISCOE and Ruth PHILPOTT) Patriarch & Matriarch 
John HYDE, b. Est 1750, (probably), North Weald Bassett, Essex, England, d. Between 1778 and 1783 (Age ~ 28 years) (Father) 
Mary BROUNING, bap. 18 Oct 1646, St. Peter’s Church, St. Peters, Broadstairs, Kent, England, d. Yes, date unknown (2 x Great Grandmother) Notes - (Research):Why was a son called John Holbrook - were the Holbrooks relations on the Hyde or Atwood side? Quite a few Holbrooks in Deal, also Atwoods.
Some Hides in the Dover area, including a one Robert, born 1708, died 1715, but no similar names to this Robert's family at any later date.
Move to Stepney
At some time between 1815 (last baptism of a child in Walmer) and 1833 (1st marriage of a child in Poplar) the family seem to have moved from the Deal / Walmer area to the Stepney area.
Did they move via anywhere else?
Margate?
The 2 oldest children married and stayed in Margate. Maybe the family had moved back there before moving on, or maybe links with Margate led them to be there. Was their mother from there? - they may have had relations there, or friends, and there may well have been more opportunities of finding work in the town. Or Robert may have acquired settlement there but not in Walmer or Deal, which his children would then have inherited, and they may have been removed to Margate.
So whilst the family might have moved via Margate there could be other reasons for the oldest 2 children settling there.
Maidstone?
Why was Martha shown as being born in Maidstone in the 1881 census? - had the family lived there and this led to the error?
Other H(y/i)des
was the name originally Hyder - there are more in the area - or was it muddled with Hyder because the latter was a more familiar name in the area?
Martha Donoghue
When I first saw that Robert's death was registerd by a 'Martha Donohoo' I guessed she was most likely an Irish nurse; I noticed that she lived in Poplar, not Ratcliff, so wasn't someone living in the same house. So why was she present? But I also knew that there was a baptism of a Martha in Walmer who I thought was probably Robert's daughter (though mother's name wrong, if so). So I checked the evidence for Martha Donohoo.
If it was his daughter, being baptised in 1804 she probably married before 1837 so her marriage is unlikely to show in any index of BMD registrations.
Census information:
The 1841 census has a Martha Donahue, aged 18, in Finsbury / Parish of St. Giles, and a Martha Donoghue, in Poplar, aged 35 (rounded down i.e. born 1801-1806), not born Middlesex (but born England or Wales, unlike her Irish-born husband).
Obviously the informant could have married and became a 'Donohoo' between the 1841 census and 1845, but the only extra Martha Donohue found in the 1851 census was only aged 22, and had only married (and so become a Donohue) in 1850, so can be ruled out as the informant.
Thus the Martha in Poplar in 1841 has to be the strongest contender, based on Poplar being where the informant lived.
Looking in the later censuses for Martha showed she was born Deal and then looking for a marriage to match the family found on the censuses shows she was a Hyde! I think we can safely assume Martha was Robert's daughter.
Death / burial
Before I knew of the Walmer / Deal link I searched for Robert and / or Ann in the censuses in Margate and burial records in Margate (St John's PRs) without success and Margate cemetery only opened in 1856.
Since I now know they had children after Robert and Ann, baptised in Deal and then Walmer, I thought they might be buried in that area. Walmer registers searched 1820 - 1832 without success.
Since a son moved to Stepney I suspected one or both were buried there and have found Robert in that area (in the 1841 census and a burial in 1845). The informant for the death registration matches a daughter Martha Hyde, confirming the that the Robert I found was the right one. (The occupation of rope maker in the 1841 census also matches the occupation in Walmer for the baptism of George in 1813). I have also found found the burial of an Ann Hyde in Poplar, consistent with Robert's wife.
(I had also found the East Kent wills index has an entry for a Robert Hyder of Dover, will written 1830, probate granted 1833 (Register Ref. PRC32/70/62; Original Ref. PRC31/303 H/2; Original will & codicil) - but FamilySearch shows the burial of a Robert Hydes in Dover 1833, age given as 70. Probably the Robert of the will.)
Person ID I412 All | Teresa's direct ancestors Last Modified 24 Jul 2024
Father John HYDE, b. Est 1750, (probably), North Weald Bassett, Essex, England , d. Between 1778 and 1783 (Age ~ 28 years) Mother Ruth PHILPOTT, b. Abt 1754, (probably), Margate, Kent, England , bur. 12 May 1824, St. Dunstan and All Saints’ Church, Stepney, Middlesex, England (Age ~ 70 years)
Other Partners: Samuel GRIMWOOD m. 3 Apr 1783; Samuel BRISCOE m. 28 Sep 1794Marriage License 9 Oct 1773 - "John Hyde of North Weald Essex bach & Ruth Philpott of St John Thanet minor (fath Roger P), at St John T. 09 Oct 1773." - from index of marriage licences on Ancestry; it is not clear from this in which court the licence was obtained.
Married 11 Oct 1773 St. John the Baptist Church, Margate, Kent, England Family ID F300 Family Group Page | Family Chart
Family Ann ATWOOD, b. Abt 1778, (probably), Margate, Kent, England , d. Apr 1827, Poplar, Middlesex, England (Age ~ 49 years) Banns of marriage From 19 Jan 1800 to 2 Feb 1800 St. John the Baptist Church, Margate, Kent, England - From PR entry (image on FMP, viewed 5 Oct 2012):
"Banns of Marriage between Robert Hyde & Ann Atwood both of this Parish were published ... by me W Chapman"
Married 3 Feb 1800 St. John the Baptist Church, Margate, Kent, England - From PR entry (image on FMP, viewed 6 Dec 2012)
By banns, both otp, Robert signed, Ann made her mark; witnesses were Richard Wilson and Ann Wilson
(transcript also on KFHS CD 28)
Children9 children Last Modified 12 Nov 2019 Family ID F299 Family Group Page | Family Chart
- Although I have not found a birth or baptism record for Robert, it seems * probable * that Robert was the son of John and Ruth.